Some time ago, I asked on social media if there were any subjects people wanted me to write about. I got several suggestions and one of them stood out for me. At first sight, it seemed like a straightforward question, but not everything is what it seems.  Now, I have had straightforward questions before in my life, and they were rarely ever “straightforward”. Some of them might have been the hardest questions people ever asked me.  As it turned out, this one was no exception.

Here is the actual suggestion. (verbatim)

“How about looking at the idea of expressing feeling through photographs – Stieglitz then Minor White led with it – compare and contrast with just “photographing to see what something looks like photographed”

Honestly, I had to think about this for a while. It wasn’t like the suggestion was easy. After reading it a few times, and letting it sink in a little, it was as if I was asked to summarize the meaning and the impact of the Bible in 5 pages or so. Good luck with that!

There are many branches within the arts and crafts of photography, such as portrait, architecture, street photography, product photography, editorial, fine art, nature, and/or landscapes. Combinations of all those are also possible. A particular architectural image can be considered fine art as well if the photographer meant it to be that way. Photographers also have their preferences on how an image is captured; some prefer analog, while others prefer digital. We can even divide it further into types of cameras, from point and shoot cell phones, professional digital cameras with two feet long lenses to huge analog wooden cameras that use 11 x 14 inch, or larger, sheet film or even glass plates. Presenting what was captured can also make a huge difference. It is obviously very different if an image is presented online as an editorial or when it is printed with a 150 year old printing method on the finest paper available.

All these cameras and methods are capable of producing wonderful images in the hands of skilled photographers, and it doesn’t really matter what technique was used, as long as the result was as intended.

 

 

Building Downtown Miami, FL

1948 Graflex Crown 23, handheld

 

“Photographing to see what something looks like photographed” is a little tricky since we don’t know the intent. What is the purpose? We are bored, so let’s waste some film? Scientific? Is it just curiosity, and if so, curious about what? Is it to study the subject or object with the purpose of finding out if there are any latent fine art possibilities, like Edward Weston’s Peppers or Man Ray’s Violin Woman? Considering the other part of the suggestion, “feelings through photographs”, I assume what was meant were images for the sake of memories of a good time, a special event, or anything else that was worth taking a picture of, like a stock image of a bottle of ketchup. Definitely not captured with the purpose of creating art. (Even though some snapshots can be, and stock photography can be an art in itself)

“Expressing feelings through photographs” is the flip side. These images are captured very purposefully, with the intent of creating something to hang on a wall and to enjoy for generations to come. I don’t want to discuss in this article what qualifies as art, let alone fine art, but it is not a stretch to assume that the photographer had the intent to capture his or her emotions and feelings that were evoked and experienced by the subject at the time and place of the capture.

Unless you know the person very well (and even then, it’s tricky), we have no idea why people feel what they feel when looking at a scene for a potential photograph. Even if it seems obvious, we don’t know. If somebody looks out over the ocean and starts crying, we have no idea if that is because of sad memories or happy memories. So, since it is not possible for a simple person like myself to describe and interpret the emotions of other people that they experience looking at something, I just stick to my own in this article. That is difficult enough, frankly.

This is a story about my own process, emotions, and intent. Hopefully, some can relate to or recognize something about themselves in my story.

There is also a gray area — a very large gray area. Why just extremes? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can’t we just take a picture of something because…well…., just because?

There are millions of pictures out there that are not snapshots, not stock pictures, and not captured because they evoke certain emotions. There is no need to be difficult about these images, no need for some semi-intellectual interpretation, or to overthink the concept. We simply liked something about what we saw, and that’s it. Every so often, we just find a purpose or meaning after the fact. Take the broom image below, for instance. Yes, you see that correctly; it’s an image of an old broom. Nothing more and nothing less. After the fact, this image gave me the idea to make a series of old tools like shears, axes, etc. as an homage to agriculture, but that was not my initial intention. It’s a multipurpose image.  Around Halloween, I call it “Somebody I know”.  The rest of the year, it’s just “Old Broom”. These images are fun, and besides the identity of that “somebody”, there is nothing secretive or emotional about them. Not as far as I can tell anyway.

 

‘Somebody I know”

1948 Graflex RB, Series B 6 x 9 SLR

 

For me, it is not just about taking pictures, it is also about being out and about in nature or the need to give my brain a break from all the excitements of daily life. People have all sorts of ways of doing that. They play sports, have a hobby of some sort, or sleep on the couch on their day off.  For me, it is creating art. Photography is my chosen form of creating, but frankly, I could easily have been a potter, a painter, a woodworker, a glassblower, or a weaver. I am fascinated by all of those. But photography it is.

Being creative is good for everyone and good for mankind as a whole. Each individual effort helps with the growth and progress of mankind.  I’m not sure what the world would look like without creativity, but I have a feeling none of us would like it. Talented or not is completely irrelevant.

“Practice any art, music, singing, dancing, acting, drawing, painting, sculpting, poetry, fiction, essays, reportage, no matter how well or badly, not to get money and fame, but to experience becoming, to find out what’s inside you, to make your soul grow.” – Kurt Vonnegut

So, if life was too time-consuming for a while and I didn’t have the opportunity to be creative with my photography, it’s like all my muscles are beginning to tighten up and my nerves are beginning to burn. Not literally, obviously, but it surely feels like it. I call that the “itchies”. It is that urge that wants me to get out and that wants me to come home with my next “masterpiece”. (Wishful thinking)

Here is the thing though, I simply cannot come home with halfway decent images if I am too tense, and I have too much on my mind. Photography is for me not a way to relax. It is not a way to get rid of all that tension. Just being in nature probably is, it’s cheaper than therapy, but not if I go out with the purpose of photographing. For me to come home with something decent, I need to be relaxed before I leave home. If I get the itchies, I work harder to get all the chores and errands done. That complicated letter that needs to be written, for instance, must be written before I can go out and remotely hope to have a successful photography outing. In other words, my “itchies” are very motivational to get things done.  If I know I have a pile of work that must be done, I cannot relax since that pile of work would be all I would be thinking of when I am out and about. In that state of mind, forget about putting feelings into my work, there are none.

I know a big thing with my type of photography, mystical landscapes, is weather-dependent. In many instances, it is a waiting game. Waiting for the right weather, the right clouds, and the right light. Living in South Florida, I don’t have that problem very often.  Many days are just about the same. A week or two can go by without a significant change in the weather. Meaning, that for my “Itchies” problem, weather is usually not the most significant factor, if a factor at all. If I must wait for the weather, it is more often than not waiting for the weather to get worse. I prefer drama in my work.

 

Florida Bay with Mangroves

1971 Graflex Crown 45, handheld

 

I typically do not go out on a scouting trip. My stomping ground is the Everglades National Park and the Big Cypress National Preserve. There are some other areas in the area I go to occasionally, but most of the time, the two I mentioned are pretty much it. I have been going to those places ever since I moved to Miami 35 years ago. Okay, out of those 35 years, I lived in Palm Beach for about 15 years after Hurricane Andrew, but I still had ties with Miami all that time, and Palm Beach is after all only 1 ½ hours or so driving north of Miami.

In other places and areas I am not all that familiar with, I don’t really scout either. Usually, there is either no time because I am only there for a very short while or there is simply no opportunity to go to an unfamiliar place, check it out for photo opportunities, and come back another day.

“12 significant photographs in any one year is a good crop.” – Ansel Adams

Fortunately, I don’t shoot from the hip. I shoot mainly large format film, and that is never about quantity but always about quality. So, there is no pressure to come home with a lot of pictures. Very often, I only shoot 2–4 images in an outing of several hours, and I am usually able to come up with something decent frankly, or sometimes even better than decent if I’m lucky. On the other hand, I might also come home with absolutely nothing besides the experience, and that is fine too.

The other thing is that potential subjects often just hit me in the head, I can drive or walk around, and with no effort at all something catches my interest. It is almost as if there is a little halo around the darn thing. This doesn’t necessarily mean it will all work out, and I am able to successfully translate it from a three-dimensional something to a two-dimensional something on a piece of Polyethylene Terephthalate, but at least, the potential is there. These types of photographic revelations are the most fun and are by far my favorites.

 

Back entrance of the Coconut Grove playhouse

1938 Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta 531/2

 

Other than the things that jump out at me, there are some things in the landscape I like to photograph that are on my wish list, but it is either the wrong time of the year or I can simply not find the exact spot anymore. So even though it is not scouting per se, there are things I see and keep in the back of my head for another (better) time or for when I can find them again.

“Landscape photography is the supreme test of the photographer – and often the supreme disappointment.” – Ansel Adams

 

This crooked tree for instance, it is a relatively famous tree in the Everglades and is about 50 feet or so from the main road. I sort of knew where it was, but every time I looked for it, I couldn’t find it until one morning. For some reason, it stood out, and I could hear the angels sing. Of course, I seized the moment and spent some quality time with the tree.

Now I lost it again! Like before, I know sort of where it is.  It’s playing hide and seek with me.  Keep in mind though the tree is only 3 feet  tall and surrounded by water and much higher trees, and in my defense, there are also no mile markers in the National Park. I wish they would fix that. I can surely use them. At least I have some halfway decent images of that darn tree now.

 

Everglades, Crooked Tree

Zone VI/Wisner 4 x 5”.  Nikon 360 mm tele lens

 

I try to focus on the invisible, mystical, and spiritual sides of my subjects, especially with my black and white landscape pictures, and to translate what I see into something I would like the viewer of the final image to see. The potential) subject does have to wake up certain feelings and emotions. If not, there is probably nothing worthwhile to show.

 

“When I know your soul, I will paint your eyes.” – Amedeo Modigliani

What Modigliani said so elegantly about his paintings works for photography too. It is my conviction that to capture a subject as good as you can, you must love and understand that subject. Even if it is just for a very brief moment, there is this process of the creation of a relationship based on love, understanding, and respect. When I am at that point, I feel a form of intimacy with the subject, regardless of what that subject might be. This form of intimacy is for me more present and pronounced when shooting with film than with digital. In fact, it is hard for me to get even close to that with digital. Can’t do it really. Pinhole is even better. The icing on the cake.

I don’t know whether it is spiritual or not, but either way, pretty darn close. It is not a big secret that everything on this tiny blue dot in space is connected. If something happens to one part, it affects all other parts one way or another sooner or later. The same is true of our own body, if there is something wrong with one organ, other organs pay the price. Most know what I am talking about, I am sure, unfortunately. We can go bigger, if something happens to the moon, rest assured, earth will notice. Jupiter is our protector. It’s our big brother or sister. If something happens to Jupiter, it is very likely that earth will live a lot shorter. The whole universe seems to be like that, one giant organism, and science discovers more and more evidence to that effect on a very regular basis.

Realizing that, I see no reason why there wouldn’t be a connection between my subject and the photographer. After all, photographers are human, and we humans are also one of those parts. We are links in a chain or the drops of the same ocean if you like. Everything is connected and hopefully, that notion shines through in our work!

 

The Ominous Everglades

Snapdragon 45 Pinhole

 

“Photography is not about what you see or how you see it, but about how you want to present it.” – Me

There is something about working with beautifully analog, and often handmade, equipment, it demands a level of respect and patience. Equipment like that forces one to slow down and think about what you would like to capture, how you would want to capture it, and how you intend to present it. Equipment that is a work of art in itself reinforces unconsciously the whole process of creating. It is almost like the equipment is a conduit between the artist and the subject. Some might say, it’s just a tool, and you would be right, but there are tools and there are tools. All the decisions in the image making process must be made by the photographer. Nothing is automatic. This whole process of creating something is very satisfying regardless of the results. Even the mistakes have a purpose and there is nobody to blame but ourselves.

How’s that for feelings and all that?

If I had stayed on my digital D-tour, I would not have written this article or any other article I have written about photography or art in recent years. The philosophy or the deeper meaning of photography would not have entered my mind in the same way it does now.

This article was personal, and your mileage might vary, but nevertheless, it is my hope that it was thought provoking. Thinking about these things can only improve our art.

Rudy Umans

www.rudyumans.com

Tuesday, October 16, 2024

 

Some disclaimers

  • All the images were captured on film with minimal post-processing.
  • Also, the above are strictly my personal opinions and experiences. There are no claims of the truth here. 
  • No Artificial Intelligence was used. This article was 100% written by me, and that includes any typos and grammar mistakes that only humans are allowed to make.

Forums The invisible picture

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    Some time ago, I asked on social media if there were any subjects people wanted me to write about. I got several suggestions and one of them stood out for me. At first sight, it seemed like a straightforward question, but not everything is what it seems.  Now, I have had straightforward questions before in my life, and they were rarely ever “straightforward”. Some of them might have been the hardest questions people ever asked me.  As it turned out, this one was no exception.

    Here is the actual suggestion. (verbatim)

    “How about looking at the idea of expressing feeling through photographs – Stieglitz then Minor White led with it – compare and contrast with just “photographing to see what something looks like photographed”

    Honestly, I had to think about this for a while. It wasn’t like the suggestion was easy. After reading it a few times, and letting it sink in a little, it was as if I was asked to summarize the meaning and the impact of the Bible in 5 pages or so. Good luck with that!

    There are many branches within the arts and crafts of photography, such as portrait, architecture, street photography, product photography, editorial, fine art, nature, and/or landscapes. Combinations of all those are also possible. A particular architectural image can be considered fine art as well if the photographer meant it to be that way. Photographers also have their preferences on how an image is captured; some prefer analog, while others prefer digital. We can even divide it further into types of cameras, from point and shoot cell phones, professional digital cameras with two feet long lenses to huge analog wooden cameras that use 11 x 14 inch, or larger, sheet film or even glass plates. Presenting what was captured can also make a huge difference. It is obviously very different if an image is presented online as an editorial or when it is printed with a 150 year old printing method on the finest paper available.

    All these cameras and methods are capable of producing wonderful images in the hands of skilled photographers, and it doesn’t really matter what technique was used, as long as the result was as intended.

     

     

    Building Downtown Miami, FL

    1948 Graflex Crown 23, handheld

     

    “Photographing to see what something looks like photographed” is a little tricky since we don’t know the intent. What is the purpose? We are bored, so let’s waste some film? Scientific? Is it just curiosity, and if so, curious about what? Is it to study the subject or object with the purpose of finding out if there are any latent fine art possibilities, like Edward Weston’s Peppers or Man Ray’s Violin Woman? Considering the other part of the suggestion, “feelings through photographs”, I assume what was meant were images for the sake of memories of a good time, a special event, or anything else that was worth taking a picture of, like a stock image of a bottle of ketchup. Definitely not captured with the purpose of creating art. (Even though some snapshots can be, and stock photography can be an art in itself)

    “Expressing feelings through photographs” is the flip side. These images are captured very purposefully, with the intent of creating something to hang on a wall and to enjoy for generations to come. I don’t want to discuss in this article what qualifies as art, let alone fine art, but it is not a stretch to assume that the photographer had the intent to capture his or her emotions and feelings that were evoked and experienced by the subject at the time and place of the capture.

    Unless you know the person very well (and even then, it’s tricky), we have no idea why people feel what they feel when looking at a scene for a potential photograph. Even if it seems obvious, we don’t know. If somebody looks out over the ocean and starts crying, we have no idea if that is because of sad memories or happy memories. So, since it is not possible for a simple person like myself to describe and interpret the emotions of other people that they experience looking at something, I just stick to my own in this article. That is difficult enough, frankly.

    This is a story about my own process, emotions, and intent. Hopefully, some can relate to or recognize something about themselves in my story.

    There is also a gray area — a very large gray area. Why just extremes? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can’t we just take a picture of something because…well…., just because?

    There are millions of pictures out there that are not snapshots, not stock pictures, and not captured because they evoke certain emotions. There is no need to be difficult about these images, no need for some semi-intellectual interpretation, or to overthink the concept. We simply liked something about what we saw, and that’s it. Every so often, we just find a purpose or meaning after the fact. Take the broom image below, for instance. Yes, you see that correctly; it’s an image of an old broom. Nothing more and nothing less. After the fact, this image gave me the idea to make a series of old tools like shears, axes, etc. as an homage to agriculture, but that was not my initial intention. It’s a multipurpose image.  Around Halloween, I call it “Somebody I know”.  The rest of the year, it’s just “Old Broom”. These images are fun, and besides the identity of that “somebody”, there is nothing secretive or emotional about them. Not as far as I can tell anyway.

     

    ‘Somebody I know”

    1948 Graflex RB, Series B 6 x 9 SLR

     

    For me, it is not just about taking pictures, it is also about being out and about in nature or the need to give my brain a break from all the excitements of daily life. People have all sorts of ways of doing that. They play sports, have a hobby of some sort, or sleep on the couch on their day off.  For me, it is creating art. Photography is my chosen form of creating, but frankly, I could easily have been a potter, a painter, a woodworker, a glassblower, or a weaver. I am fascinated by all of those. But photography it is.

    Being creative is good for everyone and good for mankind as a whole. Each individual effort helps with the growth and progress of mankind.  I’m not sure what the world would look like without creativity, but I have a feeling none of us would like it. Talented or not is completely irrelevant.

    “Practice any art, music, singing, dancing, acting, drawing, painting, sculpting, poetry, fiction, essays, reportage, no matter how well or badly, not to get money and fame, but to experience becoming, to find out what’s inside you, to make your soul grow.” – Kurt Vonnegut

    So, if life was too time-consuming for a while and I didn’t have the opportunity to be creative with my photography, it’s like all my muscles are beginning to tighten up and my nerves are beginning to burn. Not literally, obviously, but it surely feels like it. I call that the “itchies”. It is that urge that wants me to get out and that wants me to come home with my next “masterpiece”. (Wishful thinking)

    Here is the thing though, I simply cannot come home with halfway decent images if I am too tense, and I have too much on my mind. Photography is for me not a way to relax. It is not a way to get rid of all that tension. Just being in nature probably is, it’s cheaper than therapy, but not if I go out with the purpose of photographing. For me to come home with something decent, I need to be relaxed before I leave home. If I get the itchies, I work harder to get all the chores and errands done. That complicated letter that needs to be written, for instance, must be written before I can go out and remotely hope to have a successful photography outing. In other words, my “itchies” are very motivational to get things done.  If I know I have a pile of work that must be done, I cannot relax since that pile of work would be all I would be thinking of when I am out and about. In that state of mind, forget about putting feelings into my work, there are none.

    I know a big thing with my type of photography, mystical landscapes, is weather-dependent. In many instances, it is a waiting game. Waiting for the right weather, the right clouds, and the right light. Living in South Florida, I don’t have that problem very often.  Many days are just about the same. A week or two can go by without a significant change in the weather. Meaning, that for my “Itchies” problem, weather is usually not the most significant factor, if a factor at all. If I must wait for the weather, it is more often than not waiting for the weather to get worse. I prefer drama in my work.

     

    Florida Bay with Mangroves

    1971 Graflex Crown 45, handheld

     

    I typically do not go out on a scouting trip. My stomping ground is the Everglades National Park and the Big Cypress National Preserve. There are some other areas in the area I go to occasionally, but most of the time, the two I mentioned are pretty much it. I have been going to those places ever since I moved to Miami 35 years ago. Okay, out of those 35 years, I lived in Palm Beach for about 15 years after Hurricane Andrew, but I still had ties with Miami all that time, and Palm Beach is after all only 1 ½ hours or so driving north of Miami.

    In other places and areas I am not all that familiar with, I don’t really scout either. Usually, there is either no time because I am only there for a very short while or there is simply no opportunity to go to an unfamiliar place, check it out for photo opportunities, and come back another day.

    “12 significant photographs in any one year is a good crop.” – Ansel Adams

    Fortunately, I don’t shoot from the hip. I shoot mainly large format film, and that is never about quantity but always about quality. So, there is no pressure to come home with a lot of pictures. Very often, I only shoot 2–4 images in an outing of several hours, and I am usually able to come up with something decent frankly, or sometimes even better than decent if I’m lucky. On the other hand, I might also come home with absolutely nothing besides the experience, and that is fine too.

    The other thing is that potential subjects often just hit me in the head, I can drive or walk around, and with no effort at all something catches my interest. It is almost as if there is a little halo around the darn thing. This doesn’t necessarily mean it will all work out, and I am able to successfully translate it from a three-dimensional something to a two-dimensional something on a piece of Polyethylene Terephthalate, but at least, the potential is there. These types of photographic revelations are the most fun and are by far my favorites.

     

    Back entrance of the Coconut Grove playhouse

    1938 Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta 531/2

     

    Other than the things that jump out at me, there are some things in the landscape I like to photograph that are on my wish list, but it is either the wrong time of the year or I can simply not find the exact spot anymore. So even though it is not scouting per se, there are things I see and keep in the back of my head for another (better) time or for when I can find them again.

    “Landscape photography is the supreme test of the photographer – and often the supreme disappointment.” – Ansel Adams

     

    This crooked tree for instance, it is a relatively famous tree in the Everglades and is about 50 feet or so from the main road. I sort of knew where it was, but every time I looked for it, I couldn’t find it until one morning. For some reason, it stood out, and I could hear the angels sing. Of course, I seized the moment and spent some quality time with the tree.

    Now I lost it again! Like before, I know sort of where it is.  It’s playing hide and seek with me.  Keep in mind though the tree is only 3 feet  tall and surrounded by water and much higher trees, and in my defense, there are also no mile markers in the National Park. I wish they would fix that. I can surely use them. At least I have some halfway decent images of that darn tree now.

     

    Everglades, Crooked Tree

    Zone VI/Wisner 4 x 5”.  Nikon 360 mm tele lens

     

    I try to focus on the invisible, mystical, and spiritual sides of my subjects, especially with my black and white landscape pictures, and to translate what I see into something I would like the viewer of the final image to see. The potential) subject does have to wake up certain feelings and emotions. If not, there is probably nothing worthwhile to show.

     

    “When I know your soul, I will paint your eyes.” – Amedeo Modigliani

    What Modigliani said so elegantly about his paintings works for photography too. It is my conviction that to capture a subject as good as you can, you must love and understand that subject. Even if it is just for a very brief moment, there is this process of the creation of a relationship based on love, understanding, and respect. When I am at that point, I feel a form of intimacy with the subject, regardless of what that subject might be. This form of intimacy is for me more present and pronounced when shooting with film than with digital. In fact, it is hard for me to get even close to that with digital. Can’t do it really. Pinhole is even better. The icing on the cake.

    I don’t know whether it is spiritual or not, but either way, pretty darn close. It is not a big secret that everything on this tiny blue dot in space is connected. If something happens to one part, it affects all other parts one way or another sooner or later. The same is true of our own body, if there is something wrong with one organ, other organs pay the price. Most know what I am talking about, I am sure, unfortunately. We can go bigger, if something happens to the moon, rest assured, earth will notice. Jupiter is our protector. It’s our big brother or sister. If something happens to Jupiter, it is very likely that earth will live a lot shorter. The whole universe seems to be like that, one giant organism, and science discovers more and more evidence to that effect on a very regular basis.

    Realizing that, I see no reason why there wouldn’t be a connection between my subject and the photographer. After all, photographers are human, and we humans are also one of those parts. We are links in a chain or the drops of the same ocean if you like. Everything is connected and hopefully, that notion shines through in our work!

     

    The Ominous Everglades

    Snapdragon 45 Pinhole

     

    “Photography is not about what you see or how you see it, but about how you want to present it.” – Me

    There is something about working with beautifully analog, and often handmade, equipment, it demands a level of respect and patience. Equipment like that forces one to slow down and think about what you would like to capture, how you would want to capture it, and how you intend to present it. Equipment that is a work of art in itself reinforces unconsciously the whole process of creating. It is almost like the equipment is a conduit between the artist and the subject. Some might say, it’s just a tool, and you would be right, but there are tools and there are tools. All the decisions in the image making process must be made by the photographer. Nothing is automatic. This whole process of creating something is very satisfying regardless of the results. Even the mistakes have a purpose and there is nobody to blame but ourselves.

    How’s that for feelings and all that?

    If I had stayed on my digital D-tour, I would not have written this article or any other article I have written about photography or art in recent years. The philosophy or the deeper meaning of photography would not have entered my mind in the same way it does now.

    This article was personal, and your mileage might vary, but nevertheless, it is my hope that it was thought provoking. Thinking about these things can only improve our art.

    Rudy Umans

    http://www.rudyumans.com

    Tuesday, October 16, 2024

     

    Some disclaimers

    • All the images were captured on film with minimal post-processing.
    • Also, the above are strictly my personal opinions and experiences. There are no claims of the truth here. 
    • No Artificial Intelligence was used. This article was 100% written by me, and that includes any typos and grammar mistakes that only humans are allowed to make.

    Post Permalink – https://ourartsmagazine.com/blog/2024/10/18/the-invisible-picture/

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    kathykmcclellan
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      Rudy,

      You stated that it is your hope that this article was thought provoking.  It was surely that and more!

      Kathy

      #45738 Reply
      rudyumans
        @rudyumans
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        Thank you Kathy!

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